My regrets about interviewing a Prime Minister

Plus, my five guiding principles for important conversations

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Have you ever dreamt of making something happen in your work? Something that feels slightly (or a lot) out of reach. And then, boom, it happens.

When I was making the podcast series Rethink Moments I made a list of dream guests – people who have, in some way, changed how society thinks. Malala Yousafzai, Colin Kaepernick, Rose McGowan. Yes, I was aiming high! High on the list was Julia Gillard, former Prime Minister of Australia. It had been a decade since her iconic misogyny speech to the Australian Parliament that sparked an explosive discussion around the treatment of women in professional and public life. It was a long shot, but I reached out. To my delight (and surprise), she said, “Yes, let’s do this!”

Recently, Rethink Moments was shortlisted for the Best Business Podcast at the upcoming British Podcast Awards (fingers crossed!).  It got me thinking about the interviews, particularly the one with Julia Gillard. So, I went back and listened. But I found it frustrating listening to our conversation as I kept thinking ‘I should have done this differently’ and ‘I should have done that differently’. That’s why this week’s newsletter is on rethinking important career moments we don’t quite get right.

First, for our weekly Rethink recap:

• Thanks to

  Albert G. Udoh
  ,
  ZZ Meditations
  ,
  Chris Tipton
  and many others for their thoughtful responses to my last newsletter unpacking the differences between reputation and trustworthiness. Do check it out if you spend a lot of time worrying about what other people think of you.

• I’m enjoying

  Julie Zhuo
  ’s Substack newsletter The Looking Glass

• Welcome to all new subscribers! Please say hi and introduce yourself here

• You can listen to my Rethink Moments interview with Julia Gillard here or in full below. And, if you want to read more about Gillard’s work on gender equality, check out her research with the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership.

“I will not be lectured about sexism and misogyny by this man. I will not.”

The infamous speech

I was living in Sydney in 2012 when Julia Gillard’s speech in the Australian parliament became a global viral phenomenon.  “Not now, not ever,” became a motto against gender inequality. (If you haven’t seen it, watch the speech here).

So seismic was this moment in culture that the Macquarie Dictionary of Australian English changed its definition of ‘misogyny’ from ‘hatred of women’ to ‘entrenched prejudice against women’. The speech was even voted the most unforgettable moment in Australian TV history, which is saying something in a country that worships sport (I’m married to an Aussie so know this personally!). Now this was a Rethink Moment.

Her side of the story

I don’t really get nervous around powerful people. I think it’s the time I spent working for President Clinton early in my career. It made me realize how refreshing people in the spotlight find it when you are not fawning but just your “normal” self around them. So I approached the interview with Julia Gillard with a sense of comfort. However, I did also feel a sense of responsibility to respect her time and frame her story properly. 

I wanted to Gillard the space to reflect and explain this huge moment. What was she thinking? What was she feeling? Was it planned or spontaneous? If you listen to the episode, you’ll hear that she was incredibly warm, open, and funny. The producers and I worked hard on this episode. We wanted to get it right.

These were the notes I had in front of me.

Something, however, that made me slightly uncomfortable was taking her back somewhere that she’d been many, many times before. I was so focused on the ‘Rethink Moment’ – my show - that I didn’t think enough about how Gillard felt rehashing one speech (amongst many in her time in office). But here is what I realized I missed – the episode became about her character, not her capability.

That’s what really bothered me on listening to the episode again.  

Gillard had the highest rate of passing legislation (561 bills) than any other former Australian Prime Minister. She was remarkably good at getting things done – carbon tax, disability insurance, paid parental leave. Yet, with female leaders, their legacy tends to become their personality, not their productivity.  Think of other female leaders such as Finland’s Prime Minster Sanna Marin or former New Zealander Prime Minster Jacinda Ardern. They’re “empathetic”, “humble,” “open,” or “warm”. It’s rarely about how competent, astute, and smart they are. I hate when the media reinforces this narrative and, yet, I had fallen into the same trap. Ouch.

I could have used the famous speech as a springboard into attitudes towards women’s rights and roles in society, in employment and in the political system. No, instead I asked about whether she thought the TikTok impersonations of her speech were funny. Double ouch.

Don’t get me wrong, the episode is still a powerful conversation. But, on reflection, there are things I would have done differently.

My (new) guiding principles

It’s been interesting for me to reflect on my feelings about this interview and consider what the experience taught me. I’ve distilled this into five guiding principles I’ll take into interviews moving forward.

These are transferable principles that you can adapt for deep conversations you have at work – such as 1-on-1s, presentations, or town halls.

1. I did my homework and watched many interviews with Gillard before I even started writing questions. But what I didn’t look for or learn from was someone else’s mistakes – when did she seem annoyed or disengaged? It’s a tell-tale sign of the kind of questions that someone likes or doesn’t want to be asked again.